idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

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Dozer
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SELF INTRODUCTION: Riding for more than 35 years, owned all kinds of Harley's over the years Shovelheads, Evo's Choppers, baggers and sportsters loved them all. More into Choppers lately though i have a FLHX for road trips. made a few custom parts for my Evo chopper, sissy bar, mounts covers and odds and ends, thinking about trying a springer build either from scratch or modified springer using tree's Ive already got. Searching for info on springers is what led me to find this forum, looks like a great source of info and some good people and I'd like to be a part of that.

idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by Dozer » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:30 am

I wanted to ask a question of some with some experience with building front ends so I thought this is the place to do it.
I was thinking of maybe changing the front end on my rigid and maybe building a springer from the plans here or something similar. I've had this bike 5 yrs, runs great rides good just a little stiff on steering because best I can measure the trail is about 8 1/4" and I'm always changing things on it so thought I might as well work on the front end too, I can always go back if I don't like it.

here's my bike, not sure of the exact dimensions best I can measure I think it's about 6" up 5" out, 45 deg rake with stock Deuce trees.
CD bike.jpg
CD bike.jpg (124.5 KiB) Viewed 182 times
I thought about just changing to raked trees with a little longer tubes but haven't seen any trees I like as much as these, so started kicking around the idea of building a new front end completely and while measure things up I thought, I like these trees why not use them if I can.
I mocked up this quick model from different models on grabcad to get an idea of what I'm thinking. Not a complete design just a quick concept so I'm sure it's not 100% correct.
I've seen a few pictures of springers like this and I like them as much as a traditional springer and would be different than most, I could make new tube from DOM to mount in the tree and create end caps and rockers to move the wheel out about 3" - 4" and reduce the trail using the same wheel.
Would that make handling worse ? is it a stupid idea or waste of time ?
my_Fork-Assembly.jpg
my_Fork-Assembly.jpg (35.47 KiB) Viewed 182 times
Probably a fork brace of some type or at least a front fender mount would help now that I see it, I think it's 42" along the fork tube now from the top of the bottom tree to the axle center but not 110 % sure on that I need to measure again.

Just kicking the idea around what do you think...

Dusty-Dave
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Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by Dusty-Dave » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:49 am

Hard to judge a rake angle from a picture. Around 40 deg? Does it have chopper flop or just heavy steering? Flop usually starts around 40 deg If it's just heavy that should be a good solution. If it's flop ie with the bike vertical and not moving when you turn it so far the wheel pulls itself to the side. Flop is harder to deal with, traditionally either reduce the rake or Sugar Bear style rockers that reduce the leverage of the wheel on the frontend. Or a little on the fringe chain fork stops with springs or tailgate struts.
Dusty
Driving that train, high on cocaine,
Casey jones is ready, watch your speed.
Trouble ahead, trouble behind,
And you know that notion just crossed my mind.

hansgoudzwaard
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SELF INTRODUCTION: I was on the last board as bonustoolkit. I have changed that to my given name.
I started a project build there " File and Fit." I paln to continue that when I go back home in Dec. 2011. I first joined the board when Gary W had it in the year 2005. That was the time I really gained an interest in building chops. I have a long way to go, compared to some here.

Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by hansgoudzwaard » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:36 pm

The inverted forks look great, but it may be easier to build new trees with more offset and use the forktubes you have now.

If I have this allwrong, please ignore.

http://www.choppercompendium.com/ccforu ... f=39&t=864

^^^^^^^^^Jeff's Build^^^^^^^
Last edited by hansgoudzwaard on Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dozer
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Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:09 am
SELF INTRODUCTION: Riding for more than 35 years, owned all kinds of Harley's over the years Shovelheads, Evo's Choppers, baggers and sportsters loved them all. More into Choppers lately though i have a FLHX for road trips. made a few custom parts for my Evo chopper, sissy bar, mounts covers and odds and ends, thinking about trying a springer build either from scratch or modified springer using tree's Ive already got. Searching for info on springers is what led me to find this forum, looks like a great source of info and some good people and I'd like to be a part of that.

Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by Dozer » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:44 am

I have put an angle gauge on the frame and tubes and with the bottom frame rails level the neck and tube show around 43 - 45 deg not sure how accurate that measurement is with a cheap gravity angle gauge but it's some idea.
It is really just heavy steering at speed. I don't have a problem with flop probably mostly because the trees rotate probably only like 25 - 30 deg each side due to the fork stops hitting the frame, they have been ground a little to allow front end to turn and Ive thought about grinding them more if I take the front end off with a angle grinder just to give a little better turning radius.
I'm thinking if this is not just a total useless Idea I can experiment with the rockers length and offset, to get the trail where I want it, thinking 3 -4 " less would be better, I've got a CNC mill so making a few different sets to experiment won't be a big deal to get it right then probably machine a final set with proper bushings and grease fittings to be plated if I like the end result.

hansgoudzwaard
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SELF INTRODUCTION: I was on the last board as bonustoolkit. I have changed that to my given name.
I started a project build there " File and Fit." I paln to continue that when I go back home in Dec. 2011. I first joined the board when Gary W had it in the year 2005. That was the time I really gained an interest in building chops. I have a long way to go, compared to some here.

Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by hansgoudzwaard » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:04 pm

Dozer wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:44 am

It is really just heavy steering at speed.
At what speed?

Dozer
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Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:09 am
SELF INTRODUCTION: Riding for more than 35 years, owned all kinds of Harley's over the years Shovelheads, Evo's Choppers, baggers and sportsters loved them all. More into Choppers lately though i have a FLHX for road trips. made a few custom parts for my Evo chopper, sissy bar, mounts covers and odds and ends, thinking about trying a springer build either from scratch or modified springer using tree's Ive already got. Searching for info on springers is what led me to find this forum, looks like a great source of info and some good people and I'd like to be a part of that.

Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by Dozer » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:38 pm

[/quote]

At what speed?
[/quote]

Above 40 it's real stiff, not dangerous just seems tight.

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curt
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Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by curt » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:27 pm

those inverted springers look pretty but ive heard they don't handle too well however I have never ridden one myself . but with a cnc mill you should be able to experiment with different trees just as easily as rockers . if your looking for numbers and such talk to krymis or customize it both real smart guys . krymis has lots of posts on springers and all the geometry also gary's original build on the cd has tons of info
ever notice when you hit somethin or someone with a hammer you feel instantly better

hansgoudzwaard
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Posts: 778
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:43 pm
SELF INTRODUCTION: I was on the last board as bonustoolkit. I have changed that to my given name.
I started a project build there " File and Fit." I paln to continue that when I go back home in Dec. 2011. I first joined the board when Gary W had it in the year 2005. That was the time I really gained an interest in building chops. I have a long way to go, compared to some here.

Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by hansgoudzwaard » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:29 pm

Jack your bike up so the front wheel does not touch. Is it hard to turn either way when elevated?

Dozer
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Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:09 am
SELF INTRODUCTION: Riding for more than 35 years, owned all kinds of Harley's over the years Shovelheads, Evo's Choppers, baggers and sportsters loved them all. More into Choppers lately though i have a FLHX for road trips. made a few custom parts for my Evo chopper, sissy bar, mounts covers and odds and ends, thinking about trying a springer build either from scratch or modified springer using tree's Ive already got. Searching for info on springers is what led me to find this forum, looks like a great source of info and some good people and I'd like to be a part of that.

Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by Dozer » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:02 am

No it's nice and smooth and turns freely, I adjusted the nick bearings when I got the bike they were loose and sloppy

Jim Sawyer
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Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by Jim Sawyer » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:06 pm

My inverted springer rides nice,I can ride with no hands and it tracks straight. I have about 4.5" of trail. I followed a set of plans and used springs called out on the plans. They were not stiff enough. What would happen is that if you steered the forks most of the way to either side, like parking lot maneuvers, the wheel would rock sideways a little due to the rockers moving independently of each other. I overcame this by using very stiff die springs instead. the only negative is that the rockers do not move very much unless you hit a very bad bump, so it is a very stiff ride. Another way to overcome the problem would be to have a bar, or someway to tie the spring rods together. (it could be used as a place to mount a fender if you want one)
While I am not unhappy with My inverted springer, If I was to build another, I would seriously consider using Gary's plans.

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Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by gearhead1951 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:31 am

another way would be to make your axle and rockers perform as a solid unit ! Make flats on opposite sides of the axle and holes to match in the rockers (like the "double D " join in automobile steering shafts) ! With the rocker surface a little "proud" of the ends of the flats on the shaft the axle and rockers will be immovable to each other once the axle nuts are torqued !

Dozer
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Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:09 am
SELF INTRODUCTION: Riding for more than 35 years, owned all kinds of Harley's over the years Shovelheads, Evo's Choppers, baggers and sportsters loved them all. More into Choppers lately though i have a FLHX for road trips. made a few custom parts for my Evo chopper, sissy bar, mounts covers and odds and ends, thinking about trying a springer build either from scratch or modified springer using tree's Ive already got. Searching for info on springers is what led me to find this forum, looks like a great source of info and some good people and I'd like to be a part of that.

Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by Dozer » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:34 am

Thanks Jim Sawyer, I was thinking about that yesterday wondering how they would act independently, I'd just have t make it rigid enough but Imagine a stiff ride is probably normal for this kind of fork..

I'd like to see yours, got any pics ?

Jim Sawyer
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:59 pm
SELF INTRODUCTION: I first found the chopperbuilders handbook back in 2004. Thanks to the board, and all its members, I was able to build My bike, and have ridden it 25,000 miles. I learned a lot, made some friends, and had a great time building it

Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by Jim Sawyer » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:13 am

one pic while building using smaller springs, the rest are with the heavier springs
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Dozer
NewB
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:09 am
SELF INTRODUCTION: Riding for more than 35 years, owned all kinds of Harley's over the years Shovelheads, Evo's Choppers, baggers and sportsters loved them all. More into Choppers lately though i have a FLHX for road trips. made a few custom parts for my Evo chopper, sissy bar, mounts covers and odds and ends, thinking about trying a springer build either from scratch or modified springer using tree's Ive already got. Searching for info on springers is what led me to find this forum, looks like a great source of info and some good people and I'd like to be a part of that.

Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by Dozer » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:40 pm

Curt, thanks I didn't notice your post till jun now for some reason. I'll search for krymis posts for some info. I've thought about making some raked trees too just a bit more money and time, but I might try it too.

Thanks for the pics Jim, very cool front end

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curt
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SELF INTRODUCTION: hi everyone its me from the old bord hopeing to see everyone come here and all the newcomers . lets make this as good as the old one or even better . lookin foreward to seeing everyones projects continue and ill be continueing mine too
Location: utica new york

Re: idea to build springer to reduce trail a little

Post by curt » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:50 pm

your very welcome I look forward to seeing your build I love springers
ever notice when you hit somethin or someone with a hammer you feel instantly better

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